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Author Topic: AirForce- Viet Nam rifle question  (Read 1574 times)
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M1A4ME
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« on: October 4, 2006, 11:05:53 PM »

My dad was in the Air Force.  When he was in Viet Nam he said he'd fold the stock up on his "M16" and put it under his pillow at night.  I tried to tell him the stock on an M16 doesn't "fold up".  The rifle will break open like a single shot shotgun but he said no, the stock on his folded up.  I asked him if he was sure it wasn't an M1 Carbine and he gave me a funny look (the "I oughta smack you boy" look) and told me he new what an M1 carbine was as he'd used them in basic and while pulling guard duty on Air Force bases during the '50's in northern Michigan.  The only rifle I can even think of that he might have had in Viet Nam was an AR 18 as the stocks do fold over on those and they used the same magazine and ammo as the M16.  We've discussed it many times over the years and gotten no where.  Any of you guys see AR18s around Air Force Bases in Viet Nam in the late '60's or early 70's?
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Son of Martha
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« Reply #1 on: October 5, 2006, 02:24:05 PM »

My first guess is a Stoner 63 survival carbine of similar.  Looks pretty similar to an M-16.  Next would be the CAR-15 (Air Force survival rifle variant)...11.5" bbl and telescoping stock.  Last is the M6 survival rifle, looks nothing at all like an M-16, but maybe someone added 10 by mistake...
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M1A4ME
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« Reply #2 on: October 5, 2006, 07:31:35 PM »

Not sure about the stoner, I'll check it out.  The Car 15 is like an M16, the stock doesn't "fold" over on it.  You can pull the back pin and fold it under.  Dad swears the stock folded sideways.  Sorry, I've just got the type of personality that I wonder about stuff like this.  By the way if you think a cat is curious you've never been around a ferret (I'm somewhere between a cat and a ferret). 
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Tall Dude
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2006, 04:53:31 PM »

 My dad was in the Air Force during the Vietnam era and swears he shot expert with an M1 Garand.  When I showed him picture of a Garand he didn't know what it was. We finally figured out it was an M1 carbine he shot.  I figure anybody in the AF "special" enough to be carrying a Stoner would remember what it was called.  The only rifle in widespread service with the AF prior to the M16 was the M1 carbine which did have a folding stock variant.
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M1A4ME
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 05:21:28 PM »

Dad went in the Air Force in 1953 and they used the carbines for guard duty around the SAC bases through the '50's and early '60's.  I also suggested the M1 carbine due to the "folding" stock.  That's when I got the history about the carbine use when they were walking guard duty up north.  He knows what the carbine is and still believes he had an M16 in Viet Nam.
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ZamaFlier
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2006, 05:58:10 PM »

The Air Force only used the Stoner 63 survival carbine because of size requirements.
If you do not know what the stoner looks like look as the M96 they are almost the same rifle, and it does not look like a M16 at all.


* M96Recon.jpg (31.36 KB, 700x204 - viewed 124 times.)
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M1A4ME
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2006, 09:30:44 PM »

Yeah, I can see it's different.  In 1970, to my dad, all he could "see" was that it wasn't an M1 carbine, it fired a small bullet, it was black all over and it had a folding stock which he folded up so he could fit it under his pillow at night.  Until I got my CAR 15 he believed it was an M16.  At that time he admitted maybe it wasn't an M16 but he still new it wasn't an M1 carbine.  I'll never know for sure what it was.  I used to think maybe it was an AR18 (the only black folding stock 5.56 firing rifle I was aware of from that time period.  I'd heard of Stoners but never seen one until this thread.  Thanks.  It's been 36 years since he was in Viet Nam and he's told me he no longer remembers enough about the rifle to look at a picture and know if that was it or not.  By the description it could not have been an M16 or an M1 carbine.  The Stoner is a reasonable assumption.
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Nickle
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 07:53:08 AM »

Might have been an XM177E2 (CAR-15), but the stock collapses, instead of folding. Looks almost exactly like an M4, but the barrel is 11.5".
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“Shooting is a deteriorating skill, if you don’t practice it often enough it will go away from you….and there is no way to get it back” Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock II, USMC

"Hathcock got it slightly wrong. You CAN get it back." Nickle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Mountain_Boys
M1A4ME
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 09:10:32 AM »

I don't think so.  I've got a CAR15 (neat little toy) and I showed it to him and he said that wasn't it.  He's adamant that the stock folded sideways on it.  It's just one of those things I'll always wonder about but never know for sure (it bothers me more than it does him since any gun he wouldn't hunt squirrels or grouse with isn't worth having anyway so he hasn't got a lot of interest in finding out what it was after all these years.)
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Nickle
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 09:39:11 AM »

Sideways would be a Stoner 63 or a Sub-Machine Gun, though I can't remember the model of it. Swedish K?
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“Shooting is a deteriorating skill, if you don’t practice it often enough it will go away from you….and there is no way to get it back” Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock II, USMC

"Hathcock got it slightly wrong. You CAN get it back." Nickle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Mountain_Boys
M1A4ME
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 10:01:09 AM »

I don't think is was a sub gun.  He bought a Mini14 years ago because it was the same caliber (and a good deal at the time).  I always thought it was kind of funny (not haha funny) that folks who are carrying a weapon because they might have to use it to save their life don't get more interested in them than they do.  In the Army only 2 of 50+ of us went to the range (civilian and military) every chance we got.  Later, in another job, of the 8 of us that carried sidearms every day only 3 of us regulary practiced with them.
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Tall Dude
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2006, 01:41:00 PM »

What was your dad's career field? That might help narrow things down alot.


As far as I can find out the Stoner 63 Survival model  was experimental only and was never issued.

http://home.houston.rr.com/stoner63a/srifle.htm

« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 01:44:52 PM by Tall Dude » Logged
BigDaddy
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 07:34:25 AM »

The other AFSC (MOS) that was issued the CAR15 (XM177) was Para Rescue PJ's and combat controllers.
A buddy was a PJ in Viet Nam and used one.

The other wierd Stoner designed AR survival weapon was the Busmaster bullpup. It had a swivel pistol grip for Left or Right hand use.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 01:52:39 PM by BigDaddy » Logged
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