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Author Topic: silly question but what does(do) Fred's AQT target(s) look like?  (Read 74770 times)
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mountainman
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2007, 10:20:48 AM »

re; "Basics"

Guys and Gals,

I guess our disagreement stems from our definition of what we call "Basics".
It seems that the RWVA's definition will be forever based on the on the iron sights, four-position, use a sling, approach to teaching rifle marksmanship.
To me "basics" much is simpler: use a weapon you can shoot well, and hit what you're shooting at consistently in a variety of "real life" scenarios.
As a tactical shooter, I have little regard for the classic "four positions" and the prone tight sling position. I find it to slow to assume, potentially dangerous, and with my choice of weapon it is not nearly as accurate as what I am able to achieve with my bipod equipped DPMS LR308B. On a calm day, when wind gusts are not a problem, and firing prone with a bipod, MOA groups are a fairly regular occurrence at 400-500 yards!
Even with my non-bipod equipped "classic" hunting rifles, I have found little use for the kneeling position, although I do use the sitting position occasionally when positioned on a steep hill side and assuming the prone position is not practical. For the most part I prefer to use some sort of rest, like a downed log or rock as a shooting support; using a rucksack or my forearm as a cushion.
I firmly that the more time a person spend afield with their rifle, whether it be in real combat, tactical shooting, or hunting; the less use they will have for the four position, tight sling approach to rifle marksmanship.

mountainman

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"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" George Washington [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds." 2 Cor. 10: 4.
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2007, 11:04:08 AM »

 The Military has been teaching it this way for many years Grin Although in later years the Army got away from it and used other means. I have heard the Army is now going back to the old way that has been around for so long.
 When you have many people you are trying to teach and unknown experience with rifles, this way must work or it would have been changed years ago.
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M1A4ME
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2007, 12:01:25 PM »

Appleseed is basic rifle marksmanship (along with apprecitation for Revolutionary War history and pleas to get involved in the politics of maintaining our rights as US citizens).

It is my understanding that the RWVA supports Appleseed.  There are many within the RWVA who don't Appleseed.  Once you learn and polish the basics you are free to move on to more advanced stuff.  No one nails your foot to the floor or epoxies a sling to your arm.

You won't always have perfect (or even near perfect) shooting conditions in the field - which is why it's kind of hard to understand how someone who shoots off a bench all the time thinks they can get the job done in the mud and the bugs and the grass.  However, if you can shoot well without the benifits of a good rest then it shouldn't hurt you when you do have a rest.

As to bipods - I've seen people shooting at Appleseeds with bipods (and scopes).  Based on the results I'm not sure having a bipod helped them much as I don't think they managed to shoot a rifleman score even with the bipod.

Having the fancy tools doesn't mean you know how to use them.  It makes it quicker and easier for everyone to learn if the course of instruction stays Appleseed vs. the advanced stuff.  Once you learn the basics the add ons should help you, not get in your way.  Many folks try to "buy" their score vs. earning it by improving their skills rather than their equipment.  At some point the skills develop to the point where equipment improvement translates into a bigger performance improvement (one of those "good" things).

PS.  I saw a guy use a bipod on a scoped bolt action rifle for the sitting and prone stages of an AQT and he still didn't shoot a rifleman score.  If he had though, what would it have proved.

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Buckshot
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2007, 11:11:13 PM »

re; "Basics"

Guys and Gals,

I guess our disagreement stems from our definition of what we call "Basics".
It seems that the RWVA's definition will be forever based on the on the iron sights, four-position, use a sling, approach to teaching rifle marksmanship.
To me "basics" much is simpler: use a weapon you can shoot well, and hit what you're shooting at consistently in a variety of "real life" scenarios.
As a tactical shooter, I have little regard for the classic "four positions" and the prone tight sling position. I find it to slow to assume, potentially dangerous, and with my choice of weapon it is not nearly as accurate as what I am able to achieve with my bipod equipped DPMS LR308B. On a calm day, when wind gusts are not a problem, and firing prone with a bipod, MOA groups are a fairly regular occurrence at 400-500 yards!
Even with my non-bipod equipped "classic" hunting rifles, I have found little use for the kneeling position, although I do use the sitting position occasionally when positioned on a steep hill side and assuming the prone position is not practical. For the most part I prefer to use some sort of rest, like a downed log or rock as a shooting support; using a rucksack or my forearm as a cushion.
I firmly that the more time a person spend afield with their rifle, whether it be in real combat, tactical shooting, or hunting; the less use they will have for the four position, tight sling approach to rifle marksmanship.

mountainman



Mountainman,

How is a person going to shoot well when handed a rifle (with no other instruction) and told to go out and use it?

Though they hate it mightily, the RWVA is going through the same program the USMC never left and still uses and the Army is now getting back to after a long trip through scientific but worthless BS!  Basic rifleman training.

If you train them to shoot with a rifle, their body and a sling, they can shoot.  Then they get the extra or specialized tools they may need to go over and above the basic rifleman level.

You can not take a person and take them from induction right into the sniper program!

The positions can sometimes be used as is or modified in the field.  But more than that, the teach the process of building as stable a position as you can, using your natural point of aim and your skills and controls to break the shot, that is why the progressively get harder as you work up farther from the ground.

Most of the serious shooters I know have their positions down, but they don't practice in them very often unless they have a point they have to work out, they spend most of their time firing in offhand.

Buckshot
 
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Jack A Sol
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2007, 08:36:02 AM »



As to bipods - I've seen people shooting at Appleseeds with bipods (and scopes).  Based on the results I'm not sure having a bipod helped them much as I don't think they managed to shoot a rifleman score even with the bipod.

PS.  I saw a guy use a bipod on a scoped bolt action rifle for the sitting and prone stages of an AQT and he still didn't shoot a rifleman score.  If he had though, what would it have proved.



I remember that during the worland shoot last year that "riflewoman" managed to claim the title of rifleman by using both a scope and a bipod.  I too am not sure what that proved other than an expensive AR with all the accesories can shoot 1" at 25 yards from a rock solid platform.  my point is that maybe appleseed shoots should enforce a "no bipod no scope" rule for at least the first day, and maybe require that all instructors/staff to be able to shoot rifleman with irons verified at least once.  In thier push to recruit instructors maybe a slowdown to ensure that the quality and ability is there first might provide more credibility and quality.
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Fear is the real weapon.  If you can overcome it you will be free. if you create it you can conquer the world.   Jack A Sol
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2007, 12:49:44 PM »

jack, are we in danger of agreement here?  You and me?  Me and you?

Yeah, I would feel "funny" trying to teach someone else techniques I had not used myself and seen the benefit of.  While I like my bipods and scope I've proven to myself over and over that a good sling supported prone position is plenty steady enough to shoot nice groups at 25 meters.  I can even do it with iron sights if I have enough sunlight shining on the front sight so it'll focus for me.

That B. Jones insert in my M1 rear sight (have to use the NM aperature to get the o-rings and lens in there) has really helped my see the front sight on my M1 well enough to shoot it with iron sights as well (even without the sunlight shining on the front sight).

While its true that folks can teach a subject without being able to do it well themselves (had professors like that in college) it was always tough for me to really respect folks who were repeating something they'd been told, or read, vs. something they knew from the experience of having done it themselves.

I think one of the reasons for urging folks to bring the iron sighted service rifles is to have them prove to themselves that you don't have to have a $3,000 rifle and scope set up shooting match ammo from a bench to be able to hit out to 500 yds.  All the fancy stuff can come later when the shooter's skill has improved enough to get the benefit of it.
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« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2007, 07:51:36 PM »

jack, are we in danger of agreement here?  You and me?  Me and you?

Yeah, I would feel "funny" trying to teach someone else techniques I had not used myself and seen the benefit of.  While I like my bipods and scope I've proven to myself over and over that a good sling supported prone position is plenty steady enough to shoot nice groups at 25 meters.  I can even do it with iron sights if I have enough sunlight shining on the front sight so it'll focus for me.

While its true that folks can teach a subject without being able to do it well themselves (had professors like that in college) it was always tough for me to really respect folks who were repeating something they'd been told, or read, vs. something they knew from the experience of having done it themselves.

I think one of the reasons for urging folks to bring the iron sighted service rifles is to have them prove to themselves that you don't have to have a $3,000 rifle and scope set up shooting match ammo from a bench to be able to hit out to 500 yds.  All the fancy stuff can come later when the shooter's skill has improved enough to get the benefit of it.

ACK!! I do agree with you Lips Sealed  I think i need to go take a bath... I feel....SO......dirty.

dirty, dirty boy jack
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Those who proclaim their rights the loudest, will be the FIRST to take yours.    Jack A. Sol
You are not what you believe, you are what you will fight for.  Boston T. Party
Fear is the real weapon.  If you can overcome it you will be free. if you create it you can conquer the world.   Jack A Sol
mountainman
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2007, 09:20:50 AM »

re: How is a person going to shoot well when handed a rifle (with no other instruction) and told to go out and use it?

Good question. But, for me that was exactly what happened. What it took was  was Practice, Practice, Practice!
When I was nine years old my dad gave me a Stevens Crackshot 22. Every weekend we went to a canyon near our home and I shot a couple of boxes(about 100) rounds from a variety of positions at ranges from 10-50 yards. My rifle had a hair trigger and very elimentary iron sights, but like most rifles of that time period, the little gun shot very close to point of aim. One day I shot a wasp of my target at about 25 yards! I know I hit him because what was left of him was splatered around my bullet whole.
My dad was in the ROTC in College and taught me some basics; like breathing and how to hold my rifle, but it didn't have a sling, so I to learned to shoot without one.
My next rifle was a Mossberg 22 Trainer; the same Model that the Military was using at the time. It was equipted with peep sights and a sling and I eared a Boy Scout Marksmanship Merit Badge shooting that rifle.
About that time, we had carnivals that came to our town. I always spent my allowance at the shooting gallery. On several occasions I outshot Marines fresh out of Boot Camp wearing their newly acquired Marksmanship Medals.
I know that my answer is a bit lon and may sound like a lot of bragging, but that's how it happened for me.

mountainman


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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds." 2 Cor. 10: 4.
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2007, 04:23:30 PM »

Not everyone get the same attention you got.  Folks are told that an Appleseed teaches them the basics and they should take what they learn and continue to practice.  An Appleseed doesn't make you a rifleman but you should learn many techniques that will help you reach rifleman scores on an AQT (if you continue to practice).

Is someone who shoots a rifleman score on the AQT at 25 meters a rifleman?  I'd say they are on the road to becoming a rifleman and they have a very good grounding in the basics if they've been to an Appleseed or two.

Prior to going to my first Appleseed, my first RBC and rubbing elbows with the RWVA folks I alway thought I was a pretty good shot.  I've never shot a deer more than once, don't remember how many groundhogs I killed in 3 years of hunting them with my M700 but I know I killed more than my huntin' buddies put togerther and I only missed 3 or 4 and of the ones I killed all were head shots but one (hit a little low one time and had to "toss" the upper half of that one).  I to have shot flies off a 25 yds. target (I cheated as I was using my wonderful Win. M52B target rifle) and also the thumbtacks out of my buddies pistol target at 25 yds. (just the two on the top corners so it would fall over while he was trying to get his 6 rounds into a nice tight little group).  I used to do things with my rifles and handguns that most folks didn't believe till they saw it.  All this was 22 years ago when I still lived in the mountains and could shoot anytime I wanted.  I basically haven't done any shooting from 1985 till last fall.

But you know what?  I know I'm a better shot now than I was before I started down the "Appleseed Trail".  There's no doubt in my mind I'm a better shot.  I've learned a lot of "why's" along with the "how's". 

I don't "sell" Appleseed for any reason other than it helped me and I believe it will help others.  Its not the endall/doall of rifle shooting.  It is the first step of that road for many people and should be for many more.  If you've been to an Appleseed how could you disagree with that statement?
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Oohrah
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« Reply #34 on: October 9, 2007, 12:47:01 AM »

You surely write some great stuff!!!!! Grin
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Buckshot
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« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2007, 12:45:55 AM »

re: How is a person going to shoot well when handed a rifle (with no other instruction) and told to go out and use it?

Good question. But, for me that was exactly what happened. What it took was  was Practice, Practice, Practice!
When I was nine years old my dad gave me a Stevens Crackshot 22. Every weekend we went to a canyon near our home and I shot a couple of boxes(about 100) rounds from a variety of positions at ranges from 10-50 yards. My rifle had a hair trigger and very elimentary iron sights, but like most rifles of that time period, the little gun shot very close to point of aim. One day I shot a wasp of my target at about 25 yards! I know I hit him because what was left of him was splatered around my bullet whole.
My dad was in the ROTC in College and taught me some basics; like breathing and how to hold my rifle, but it didn't have a sling, so I to learned to shoot without one.
My next rifle was a Mossberg 22 Trainer; the same Model that the Military was using at the time. It was equipted with peep sights and a sling and I eared a Boy Scout Marksmanship Merit Badge shooting that rifle.
About that time, we had carnivals that came to our town. I always spent my allowance at the shooting gallery. On several occasions I outshot Marines fresh out of Boot Camp wearing their newly acquired Marksmanship Medals.
I know that my answer is a bit lon and may sound like a lot of bragging, but that's how it happened for me.

mountainman




Mountainman,

Would you have been as good a shot, then OR now, if you had started with a heavy barreled target .22, a medium to high power scope and a bipod?

Never having learned any type of shooting positions or to get hits with the iron sights?

I really think not, and that is all I was trying to get across.

Buckshot
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« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2007, 03:30:37 PM »

I used to use bipods on all my rifles.  After learning how to properly shoot in the prone position (with a sling), I am now more accurate without one than I ever was with one.

And as to "practical/tactical"...at our recent tactical match, we had a long range stage that cleaned everyone's clock, except the person who designed/setup the stage and 2 appleseeders.  We scored in ordered 1,2,3.  I saw many with bipods, forward grips and monopods/grip combos that couldn't hit the 100 meter or 200 meter targets without 3-5 shots.  The Appleseeders ran through all without difficulty.

I am not insinuating that appleseed is perfect, but the reason the military teaches 3 positoin shooting is, well, becuase it works.

Now then, you mention SWAT teams and Snipers-these people practice countless hours a week with their equipment to ensure they know where each bullet is going to hit.  Most of "us" (you might be an exception) don't have that kind of time to devote to our shooting (even though we'd like to). 

Bottom line, if you can hit with a Bipod every time, great.  I've never been on a firing line at an appleseed where using the bipod was discouraged, but like many have mentioned, I've also never seen that bipod make a big difference in the overall outcome for the shooter(s).

ETA: After reading Oorah's post and re-reading mine, I will add that this post is NOT intended to flame anyone who uses any advantage- be that a bipod, sandbag or rucsack, whatever- to GET HITS!

I just found it interesting that again, we find our selves discussing gadgets/tools, when really it is the man behind the weapon that make all the difference in the world.

YMMV

« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 12:28:58 AM by thereisnospoon » Logged

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Oohrah
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« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2007, 05:24:38 PM »

Guess what?   Ya use what ever skills, equipment, and
mind set that gets you hits.   When you start this real
men use stuff, people may not want to give credence
to your ideas.   Like in Animal Farm, all pigs are created
equal.   Barley a year ago only rifle worth taking about
was M1A1 or Garands, with a few SKSs thrown in.   Now
the looked down on 22 LR is looking pretty good to most
due to ammo shortage.   The thing to do is help those
without the skills to run their equipment.   You may not need
to, but they do.   Like M1A4ME, I have a sight problem
now where it is necessary to use a scope.  I learned how
to use it before the military and very familiar.   Even though
I can no longer perform to those levels now, I qualified
4th award expert in the Marine Corps and went through one
of their first sniper schools before Nam.   Yep, the only thing
that counts are hits!!!!   We aren't training for formal target
shooting here, but to give new shooters a purpose and training
to get hits with every shot.
Semper Fi
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