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News: "[A] wise and frugal government...shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." --Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, 1801
 
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Author Topic: Liberty and Religion ...  (Read 2042 times)
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ConchMan
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I've got my eye on government ...


« on: October 25, 2009, 09:03:06 AM »

While this post is mostly directed at the Islamic Fundamentalist world - the ones who currently are the ones who most clearly threaten our Liberty with their religious beliefs - it also is meant for anyone of any religion who believes they have the right, obligation, authority, privilege or in any other way believe that they must or can dictate how I believe or behave because of THEIR religious beliefs.

Religion and Liberty may easily be enemies.  When any religion puts forth a belief or policy that it is the duty of believers to convert others to their way of belief AGAINST THEIR WISHES IF NECESSARY, that religion is an enemy of Liberty.  It is UNACCEPTABLE for anyone, no matter how they believe or what God they worship, to dictate how others must believe or behave on the basis of religious principles.  In fact, the only time ANYONE has any grounds to demand that others change their behavior to conform with the demanders way of thinking is when the "other" has in some way deprived the demander of their rights.

For me to refuse to believe as you do does not deny you any right, regardless of what your God or your prophet may have said.  For an Islamic fundamentalist to believe that I may be killed because I will not conform to Islamic belief invites the reverse proposition - that I am within my rights to exterminate them simply because they will not believe as I do.  It cannot be a one-way principle.  To believe that only your religion is the "true" religion is an ignorant, intolerant and socially destructive way of thinking.
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There are no natural rights ... eat or be eaten
"Rights" are the basic rules of life agreed upon by all
All "Rights" are both individual and collective
All societies are founded on "Rights"
Governments have only the powers specifically granted them
All power resides in the People at all times
M1A4ME
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« Reply #1 on: November 1, 2009, 05:12:12 PM »

Now, can I get an "Amen!" from everyone else reading this thread?

Anyone who believes they have "rights" the rest of us don't have are people not really in touch with the real world, or they are criminals hiding behind their positions and titles of office.
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ConchMan
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I've got my eye on government ...


« Reply #2 on: November 3, 2009, 09:53:34 AM »

Let's take the thought a step further, for those who may be hearing (incorrectly) that I'm spouting atheism or anti-God views.  This country was founded by people who were mostly Christians (of various and sometimes widely differing flavors) fleeing from religious persecution.  The freedom to believe as they individually saw fit was one of the principal motivations for making the long and perilous trip to a strange, primitive, uncomfortable and sometimes savage new land.  For almost all, it was a one-way trip -- a true leap of faith.

What they and many who followed helped to found was a nation that was, and is, firmly based on certain moral and spiritual beliefs - beliefs that are shared by almost all Religions if we dig down a little to the foundations of those various ways of believing.  At the core of our moral and spritual foundations in America are the principles that virtually all Religions share at their heart.  The only problem is that there have been and are individuals who desire to FORCE others or COERCE others into believing as they personally believe.  The mullahs, the Taliban, the Inquisition, the Atheists and a few of our more garden variety faiths come to mind.  Let's remember, however, that it's mostly not the belief system that drives this, but rather certain individuals who feel the need to dominate and dictate.  Sure, many of our fellow men are enthusiastic about their way of belief and want to share it - even feel or are told by their Religious leaders that they have an obligation to "spread the word".  That's perfectly OK in my book, as long as it's done with a respect for the privacy and rights of others and doesn't become an intrusive crusade that demands compliance on my part.

So, to be sure, America is a country based on certain definite spiritual and moral ideas and without those ideas we will not be the nation that our Founders envisioned.  To the extent that we have lost or are losing those principles, our nation is threatened with a descent into the shadows of what we have been and can yet be.  Let us fight against that and rally our fellow man to cherish and observe those ideas and to live them on a daily basis.  As an individual, those ideas are at the heart and core of my spiritual and moral character even if I'm not always perfect in observing them.  They remain my ideal and my ultimate measure and tourchstone of "right" behavior.  Let us do unto others as we would have them do unto us and let us demand that others return the courtesy.

Our survival as free individuals may well depend on it.

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There are no natural rights ... eat or be eaten
"Rights" are the basic rules of life agreed upon by all
All "Rights" are both individual and collective
All societies are founded on "Rights"
Governments have only the powers specifically granted them
All power resides in the People at all times
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